A quandary about web plagiarism
3rd November 2004
I want your advice here. I want to know what you might do in my situation. In a nutshell, CollyLogic has been ripped-off pretty blatantly by a lazy designer who also recently ripped off another website. I discovered this almost two months ago, and - rather than instantly “out” this disgrace and contact the client - I decided to establish dialogue with the designer and invite him to make some changes. This is because I am a gentleman…
Now, as disappointed as I am by the numerous rip-offs flagged up by the web community over the past few months, I do often feel that comparisons aren’t always wholly justified, and some commenters seem to see it as an excuse to pour out some pent-up vitriol. Occasionally, some poor young designer has simply set about learning the rudimentaries of XHTML and CSS by borrowing some well-formed code, only for the designer to find that test-bed via his or her referral stats, cueing an outpouring of anger backed by a lynch mob of comments.
The rip-off in question
So, how big a rip-off is the one I’m referring to here? Well, it’s big, baby. However, the details are confusing. Upon contacting the agency responsible, I was informed that the designer responsible had recently been dismissed, and that such plagiarism was typical of him. The response also suggested that I was very kind to allow time for a redesign, and that this would happen very soon.
A positive, humble response. Oh, but how typical to blame someone who no longer works within - the old freelancer excuse. Anyway, fast-forward five weeks. Nothing has changed. Two-thirds of the rip-off still look like this site. I email again. I am assured that changes will be occuring, that I am very kind - and the guy asks me if I can point out any methods for creating a specific type of navigation. The cheek.
The following day, I receive an email. The guy suggests that all is resolved. Great. I surf over to the rip-off, expecting a new structure and lick of paint. If I feel that the site mirrors mine “exactly”, I am invited to suggest more ideas for changes.
Bollocks. It’s almost exactly the same, save for five new header graphics in place of my sidebar headers. Queue return email from me. It has become necessary to shove the guy’s nose into all the similarities, and point out the blatant rip-offs too. By now, I’m convinced that the chap knows nothing about CSS, otherwise he’d have satisfied my anger with some sensible and swift adjustments to colours, borders and background images.
The plot thickens
Then, I get an email from Jeremy tipping me off about a site that looks very similar to mine. He points me to the guy’s portfolio. Bastard! There it is - the same site being flagged up as a real challenge, and a big feather in the old web cap. Turns out this is the chap who the other chap had fired! So now I’ve got two design companies touting one ripped-off site as their own. It’s mine, you fucks!
Whaddoo I do?
So, to reign this thing in, I’ll conclude. I’ve already told the first lot that they have a further two weeks before I turn CollyLogic into a public hanging post, with them the main event. Today, I contacted the second lot, explaining the dialogue with the other lot, and basically offering similar threats.
Now, I want/need your suggestions here. I am not the kind of fellow who enjoys causing hassle for others. I’m not looking forward to kicking off a big slanging match where we all kick these two firms in the nuts until they go home crying for Mummy, but I do want credit for my work, and I do not want anyone (I don’t care who) thinking that I am the ripper-off-er. There are principles that concern us all here, and this issue will never go away. I’m all for inspiration, and I have always invited people to use the ticks code as a basis for their own ideas, but ripping whole chunks, images and style sheets without credit is never right.
Do I blow the whistle, and detail their crimes right here? Do I contact the client in question and explain that they’ve been paying for plagiarised work. How do I enforce my will for them to redesign? Should I help them make the changes? Dear trusted and loyal readers, I want to know what you think…
Responses
# Jason Santa Maria responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
Hell yes. Whether you are squeamish or not about it, you are entitled to take credit for your own work. They stole, plain and simple. Take back what is yours. You have already been more polite than most would. They have had their time, period. Use whatever means you deem necessary to out them. As has been proven before, the community will stand behind you and help because no one wants to be next.
# John Oxton responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
I think I have already said this on Andy Budd’s site but I will say it again; Some of us spend our lives wishing we had 1% of the talent of you ‘A listers’ but most of us simply take inspiration and anything else you offer up freely and keep wishing.
Personally I think you should out these “Fucks” quite publicly regardless.
Now, having just rebuilt I better credit you accordingly damn fast! :)
# Jon Hicks responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
I know what you mean about ‘Commenters Vitriol’ - its easy for it to get out of hand. However, I’ve found that the only way to make a difference is by the community showing their strength. One disgruntled designer is often to quiet a voice, but a raft of people complaining does. If just get the whingers off their back.
I say release the URL’s, but ask people to be firm but polite.
# Malarkey responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
It’s always hard not to be influenced somehow by strong design, but there has to be a line drawn between an influence and an out-and-out lift.
I think that the key here is not only in the visual similiarities, but more telling and important is the way that this person has lifted your code almost completely.
When I wrote about naming conventions I looked at what id and class names were commonly in use and I actively encouraged designers to use my suggested set. Lucky for you Si that you didn’t take my advice, as it is clear from things like <div class=“myhead”></div> that this chap thinks that your site is a Zen Garden, there to be re-planted.
# Simon Collison responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
Malarkey: I much prefer the DIVs hope (which was once used alongside pray), searchboxthing, and good old greenbit (now deprecated, and it became orange before it’s death - now that definitely backs up your conventions approach).
Jon and Jason - I need these kind of comments to show these dudes that it’s serious, and that we are bigger than them. Thanks.
Bryan and John: don’t feed ‘em for a few days.
Mr. Oxton: You are a gent, and your latest redesign is a beaut. I’m still not sure about the public “outing”. Maybe it is deserved though…
# Nick Finck responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
Simon, I got a cease and desist letter for you that will resolve this matter really quickly if you like.
The post you mentioned on Digital Web, yes, I sent them the letter, they replied and we worked out the details… it wasn’t an overnight redesign like you’d see on a personal site or blog, but they were going to do to it.
In fact, your post reminded me to check the site to see if it was finally redesigned.. and it has been… there are still echos of the Digital Web Magazine design there, but not enough for me to worry about it anymore.
Anyway, let me know if you would like my doc, it’s worked quite well for me in every instance.
# David Horn responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
You need to out them. But I don’t think the best way of achieving what you want is to approach the client.
The client may not care that the design is a rip-off (they, presumably, have a great looking site that they’ve paid for and the incentive for them to go back to designer and ask for it changed is minimal, and relies on their own moral code). Also, they may not understand what it means to have your CSS stolen.
My advice would be to deal directly with the designer in question. A public hanging here would do the trick I’m sure - and leave them with the presumably uncomfortable conversation with the client about why they’d had to make the changes.
Good luck.
# chris ward responded on 3rd November 2004 with...
dude, basically…
you could charge them for use of your design (the web is a big ol’ place), but you should take a moral stand on this.
if you let them off lightly, they’ll keep doing it.
wankers like these people are hurting the industry when they offer elite services but don’t come up with the goods.
in the end, the client gets stung, and future potential clients will be more weary of employing a decent designer, like yourself.
sue them. sue them. sue them.
# Cornelius Knite responded on 4th November 2004 with...
I think I’ve been in the same situation of “copying”. I was the copier. It was at the beginning of my career and I was learning. The asshole I was working for didn’t allow time for me to scratch my nuts let alone build anything in a reasonable amount of time. I’m thankful I wasn’t pursicuted…I think it’s safe to say we’ve all cheated in a time of need. I’d give those kids a break.
# nick responded on 4th November 2004 with...
DON’T help them to redo the design - then they get your skills for free, they make money, and all because they stole from you in the first place.
I think 5 weeks is more than enough, and the public hanging should commence.
I think the client should know too, that they paid someone who did nothing. They should have grounds for getting their money back - by decency or by law.
It’s one thing to learn from someone’s markup. maybe massage it, and tweak it, and use little bits for your own inspiration and vision. But taking someone’s graphics and code all as one and just using it (w/o permission from the creator) is unnacceptable. The fact that they made money of your work is unthinkable, and they should be dealt with.
out them.
# Jeremy Flint responded on 4th November 2004 with...
...give those kids a break”
Those “kids” are actually a Company, and one of their Employees passed off someone else’s work as his own, and got paid for it.
I could see some leeway if it was some high school kid designing a site for his uncle’s hardware store, but it isn’t.
What is your definition of cheating? Looking at someone’s code to figure out how they did something, then using that as a resource for designing your own site and working out kinks you run into isn’t really cheating.
Using someone’s code verbatim - meaning HTML and CSS…even using the same div names for Pete’s sake! That is cheating. Most self-respecting web designers wouldn’t do that.
# Simon Collison responded on 4th November 2004 with...
Gotta agree with Jeremy there. They are a company, and that is why I am asking for advice. Maybe the guy is financially strained, supporting a young family, and might lose a few grand from a client because I “out” him. How would such a thing affect my business - would it be a lesson learned - humbling but constructive, or would it come at such a time as to lose me a big new contract? These are the things I cannot help but consider before releasing the URL. Sorry to be such a softy.
That said, I took screen grabs of the site and code five weeks ago, and am currently making some comparative images in Photoshop, so that should I feel the need to detail the rip-off, I will have good evidence.
They’ve got until Friday noon.
# Mike Gale responded on 4th November 2004 with...
If you think you deserve compensation for this. (I guess you do. Someone presumably charged for work that they didn’t do, you did it.) Then there’s two obvious approaches.
1) Claim the development fees plus cost of collection from the development company, or both of them.
2) Claim the development fee from the client.
(Or jointly claim from all of them!)
# Andrew Krespanis responded on 4th November 2004 with...
Share the portfolio link that Jeremy provided. That designer is the one person who can’t claim to have been unaware that the design was ripped—because he was the one who ripped it. There is no need to get the company’s client involved and it is probably more professional from your stand point if you don’t aim your anger at the company. Even though they did fire him, 5 weeks is too long to wait, so perhaps a minor mention of the company could be in order… Perhaps the precision “Google-bombing” that happened to emote after they ripped the webstandardsawards.com design should be directed to the designer who figured “Save As” bought with it a transfer of copyright. The only thing we can do about such easy theft is to publicise it and support each other :)
“Smithers, release the hounds”
# Onno Bruins responded on 4th November 2004 with...
You’re too friendly Simon.
Sure one learns from looking at somebody else’s code, we all do that sometimes, and sometimes you just assimilate bits and pieces of html or css, just to make a design better, but copying an entire design and selling it just isn’t okay. Hell, my site would probably look a lot better if I actually had ripped off somebody. ;-)
(I used the ticks idea without the code btw, thanks for showing the possibility)
I’d say expose them, and if they don’t adjust the designs, send a cc to the customer, perhaps that an angry customer and the possibility of a bad reputation will cause some effect.. since small designers get a lot of work from mouth to mouth advertising.
# lee walker responded on 5th November 2004 with...
Colly. This is disgraceful. I know how hard you’ve worked on your site. For some tyke to come along and essentially steal it is a crime, morally at least.
Let’s go get ‘em. I’ll bring a bike chain.
# Neil responded on 5th November 2004 with...
I suggest you contact the client who has been sold stolen goods, name and shame the ‘designers’ involved, and then we will all help you administer a righteous ‘google’ kicking.
It seems you have been much more reasonable than a great many designers would be. They are taking the piss by ignoring your requests man.
# Pete responded on 5th November 2004 with...
I would out them, for the sake of everyone else you’ve linked to, or that’s commented here.
If they’ve seen this site, they’ve seen sites that link here. Obviously, they could quite simply take any one of our works, good or otherwise, and pass it off as their own. It’s not just a matter of a guy looking to save himself time as well as a few dollars. This had to be something meticulously done and crafted, and the idea in his head for a long time.
This is not a professional, he’s a hack, He’s the kind of hack that takes complete advantage of the kindness that most people show in giving advice and design tips to people that are willing to learn how to design well, and spits in their faces. If he can’t take the time to look at your code, see what does what, and develop his own, then he’s never going to, no matter how kind you are.
# monkeyinfez responded on 5th November 2004 with...
yeah, i agree. it’s one thing getting inspiration from someone’s work, but to shamelessly plagiarise is just morally wrong. i had a similar experience with my photography and, no matter how kind you’re feeling, it’s still plain wrong. i generally operate under a share-alike creative commons license anyway and when someone can’t even be bothered to cite that i know that they must be a complete fuck with no principles.
i’m not keen on suing, but somehow they must be made to realise that they’re completely out of order.
# Rene Grassegger responded on 5th November 2004 with...
Hi there,
if they crossed the line, the should get the feeling, that this is a pretty serious issue!
*takethewip* :-)
# Simon Collison responded on 8th November 2004 with...
Rene, they definitely got the feeling, although I would never resort to bondage. Not my style. The “bike chain” approach that Lee suggests is much more the way of an urban Nottingham boy.
Anyway, thankfully it has all been resolved.
# Gus responded on 22nd February 2005 with...
I’m coming a bit late to this debate, but ... surely your work is entitled to the same protection given other creative works.
I would suggest that a fair comparison of your situation would be with a novel writer who has found another book published with the same plot and characters as yours, with just names and places changed. The author (web “designer”) would be violating your copyright and the publisher (client) would be obliged to recall all the books and pulp them.
Any client who has been sold a plagiarised site should be forced to take it down immediately and sort out the blame and recover money etc from person who sold it to them.
BTW - much appreciate the excellent code examples and tips you make available for use by CSS newbies.
Responses are now disabled Your ability to respond is disabled automatically some 30 days after articles are published, or manually much sooner if spamming guttersnipes target a particular article.
External References
Copyright © Mr. Simon Collison 2003-2012. Protected and licensed under a Creative Commons License. Grab the RSS feed
Engineered in Nottingham, scaffolded by ExpressionEngine, steam-pumped by United & kept alive with tea and roll-ups.